cyrano: (sleepy)
Cyrano Jones ([personal profile] cyrano) wrote2002-09-24 08:00 pm

That make ya go 'hmmmmm'

No time for a proper entry here. Just a passing note.
Most of the time, in news stories or in much public writing, a person is introduced with their full name or something very identifying, and thereafter on repeating occasions referred to using their last name or their title.
This is not so with 'President' Saddam Hussein. He's referred to by his first name, a chummy 'old school pals' sort of relationship with people. (Not counting President Bush's inability to pronounce his first name--obviously *not* an old school chum, really.)
I cannot imagine this is because people are concerned that he'd be confused with the King of Jordan accidentally.
Anyway. It's past my bedtime. Good night, moon. Good night, Saddam.

By any other name?

[identity profile] miss-friday.livejournal.com 2002-09-24 11:52 pm (UTC)(link)
It's not a chummy thing at all. Here's the scoop from the CIA World Factbook:

"The Factbook capitalizes the surname or family name of individuals for the convenience of our users who are faced with a world of different cultures and naming conventions. An example would be President SADDAM Husayn of Iraq. Saddam is his name and Husayn is his father's name. He may be referred to as President SADDAM Husayn or President SADDAM, but not President Husayn."

Of course they don't explain why their transliteration is different than everyone elses

Re: By any other name?

[identity profile] miss-friday.livejournal.com 2002-09-25 12:04 am (UTC)(link)
More examples of non-surname use in titles:

Queen Elizabeth II (What is her last name anyhow? Windsor?)

President Castro (Full name: George Castro Ruz)

Chairman Mao (Full name: Mao Zedong)

[identity profile] cyranocyrano.livejournal.com 2002-09-25 03:42 am (UTC)(link)
Wow. Go you knowing stuff. (And yeah, I think Windsor is the family name now.)
Thank you.

(Anonymous) 2002-09-25 08:28 am (UTC)(link)
As found on Britannia.com:

"An excerpt from a declaration made at a Privy Council meeting, held at Clarence House on 9 April, 1952 states:

'The Queen today declared in Council her will and pleasure that she and her children shall be styled and known as the House and Family of Windsor, and that her descendants, other than female descendants who marry and their descendants, shall bear the name of Windsor.'

A later declaration (8 February, 1960) stated that all her descendants who did not bear the 'style, title or attribute of HRH, and the titular dignity of Prince or Princess' shall bear the name of Mountbatten-Windsor."


And now you know. And knowledge is a tasty deal.

-tahnan's moo

Re: By any other name?

[identity profile] lil-m-moses.livejournal.com 2002-09-25 11:02 am (UTC)(link)
Chairman Mao (Full name: Mao Zedong)

Actually, Mao is (most likely) the family name in this case. Chinese names are typically two (or one) syllables for the given name and one for the family name, and in Chinese are reversed from the typical western (first last) convention. When they're imported/translated, sometimes they're flipped, and sometimes they aren't. But if you have a one syllable and a two syllable, most likely the one is the family and the two is the given.

Re: By any other name?

[identity profile] l2g.livejournal.com 2002-09-25 12:45 pm (UTC)(link)
That is (was) Chairman Mao's surname. Chinese names usually put the surname in front (MAO Zedong, CHOW Yun-Fat, etc.).

[identity profile] cyranocyrano.livejournal.com 2002-09-25 03:46 am (UTC)(link)
Romanizing from Arabic (like from Hebrew, Russian or any of the eastern asian languages with 'one glyph equals one word' systems) appears to be kind of a politely agreed upon system, and can change over time or between different conventions. (See 'Hannuka' 'Tchaikovsky' and 'Peking' for some examples off the top of my head.) My guess is that it relates to that.

[identity profile] cyranocyrano.livejournal.com 2002-09-25 04:00 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh yeah. And Muammar Qadafi.

[identity profile] miss-friday.livejournal.com 2002-09-25 08:08 pm (UTC)(link)
Personal experience points to a general lack of a coherent or agreed upon system. Everytime I search a different database looking for information on Alexander "Glazonouv" I have to search six different time to account for different spellings.

Oh, and I once had a hell of a time trying to find Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker Suite score in the WSU Library because the score was so old, it was in the catalog under Ch.