Goodreads: Norse Mythology

[cyrano]

Norse Mythology by Neil Gaiman

This was not what I was expecting.
I'm doing some research for a story about dead gods walking the dirty streets of LA, and this book was my first thought--Neil Gaiman taking on the meaty and textured eddas and relating them in his own voice. Which this was, if his voice was your grandfather's telling you stories by the fireplace. The language is casual and updated, the stories short and punchy, and I got a lot of ideas*, which is why I gave it three stars, but I'm going to need something more substantial before I call myself done.
*Did you know there are more than three Norn? Apparently there are Norn for the elves, for the Svartelves, Gods, Humans... Probably Norn of rats too.

Comments

[mimerki]

It isn't merely that there is a Norn for the elves etc., it's that there are Norns that look over everyone. Some people have good Norns and therefore better lives (which is not necessarily the same as easier lives - it's Norse mythology we're discussing here), some have bad Norns and therefore worse lives. And yes, doubtless Norns of Rats, who look over the lives of rats, good and bad. (And in the crossover fic with Death of Rats, I insist Master Splinter from TMNT should make an appearance.)

Next lecture: the Norns are not just the Fates. Their names do not mean Past, Present, and Future because if they did, you would look at their names and say, "oh, Pastette, Presentina, and Futurissa!" Urd means something like Fate, Verdandi might mean something like Becoming, and Skuld means something like Debt.

[cyrano]

I'm glad for your input here, as I'd like to get things mostly right. I still may recommend you not read the finished product because story will take liberties.
Are there texts you recommend for somebody with a sort of layman's understanding, and wants to explore things like "because of his parentage, Loki may feel like he doesn't belong anywhere, despite his strong desire to be a part of something, so he's an asshole and rejects people before they reject him"?

[mimerki]

I actually fully support taking liberties. Mythology is a living thing and, also, fiction is not the same as religion. I actually really enjoy a series that casts the Norse gods as bad stupid bullies (against the ever-so-awesome Irish gods) because it's fun. I get pissy when people start to argue religion from those sources (e.g., Loki is Odin's sworn-brother, not his adopted son), but also, I am all about the wacky side sources and the permeability of the myths. And, for example, I am consistently putting forward Heimdall as Big Bi Sky Daddy - He fathered the various social classes of humans by sleeping *between* married couples so he is clearly just a wandering bi unicorn god of threesomes and we're just gonna back-form on that rainbow symbolism. (There are other reasons I think He's gay/bi, but that's the big one.) We need an LGBT+ god who isn't an asshole, there is no god who is less of an asshole than Heimdall and the mythology can support me. (UPGwise, I have His blessing on that one. Bring all the LGBT+ babies home, Big Bi Sky Daddy loves and supports them. Rainbows for everyone!)

My go-to basic Norse stuff recommendation is probably Hilda Ellis Davidson's Gods and Myths of Northern Europe. She's academic but readable. If there are specific gods you are looking to use, I can point you at the various poems and sources for them. (Because otherwise you run the risk of using my sometimes idiosyncratic view: see Heimdall above.)

[cyrano]

This will be after the latest Ragnarok, so I'm planning dealing with Odin's sons Vidar and Vali (although I'd prefer to have Loki's son Vali), Thor's sons Modi and Magni, Balder and Hod, Mimir's head, Idunn or some keeper of the apples, Hel, some kind of Norns, Ratatosk, possibly the magic boar Saeremnir, Elli the giant grandma who turned out to be old age, Loki's wife Sigyn, and the boat that folds up into a scarf.
Oh, and one of the ravens and the two wolves Skoll and Hati.

[mimerki]

I'm mostly trying for things you might now immediately come up with:

I work with Vidar the Silent, so I'm gonna pass on that one.

Vali: There's no evidence as to who the other parent of Loki's son Vali might be and Loki has given birth as a human woman at least once and Odin knows about it (Lokasenna)...

Modi & Magni don't have a lot of text about them. I will point out that Magni is a gender-neutral name in modern Norway.

Baldur and Hod: Of interest, in Saxo Grammaticus, they are fighting over a girl and Hotherus just kills Baldur, no Loki in sight...
Baldur's horse and its sprained leg make an appearance in one of the Merseburg Charms and he seems to also go by Phol there.

Mimir and/or his head:

Idunn: In Hrafnagaldur Óðins, a figure who may be Idunn is followed into the underworld by Loki and Heimdall immediately before Ragnarok. She cries a lot.

Hel: It might be worth remembering that in the Prose Edda, Odin gives Hel dominion over nine realms of her own. Not the usual nine realms, nine other realms.

Ratatosk: I think it's worth noting that there's a drawing of him where he's green and has a horn. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratatoskr#/media/File:AM_738_4to_Ratatoskr.png

The boar Saerhrimnir basically only shows up in reference to Valhalla. He is said to produce the best of meats in Grimnismal, and that's basically quoted in the Prose Edda...

Elli: That's a story that only appears in the Prose Edda.

Sigyn: There's not much. She almost always appears in relation to the story of the binding of Loki. :(

Skidbladnir: Again, not a lot directly. It is, however, made by the sons of Ivaldi. Who's Ivaldi? No clue! Except! That Idunn is youngest of the elder children of Ivaldi, so the sister of the makers of the ship.

[cyrano]

All of this is awesome. Especially the bit about Hel. I think she's the protagonist in the first story.

Vali: So noted. If I hadn't just returned the darn book, I could look up where Gaiman got the idea that Sigryn was Vali and Narfi's mother.

Magni: Good. I could use more women in this story.

Baldur: I do enjoy the story with Loki. It nicely outlines his desperate need to be loved and the threat he feels from anybody else who is. (Like cutting off Sif's hair, the killing of... whatisname the servant after everybody said how awesome he was.)

Idunn: That's fascinating. Aren't Loki and Heimdall supposed to kill each other at Ragnarok?

Ratatosk: That's... maybe it's an ear? But I can work with green. Because a squirrel who tells lies just to stir shit up is too good to let go, especially with Loki dead.

Skidbladnir: It's going to be a very cool car when it unfolds now.

Gah. I need to not go down the Loki rabbit hole. Especially since I'm firmly opposed to him showing up in the story.

[cyrano]

Is it just precedence that the Norns are all women?

[mimerki]

I'm not sure I understand the question? They are consistently described as women or maidens, and the word in Old Norse/Old Icelandic is a feminine noun (noting that it's a gendered language, so say cat [kottr] is a masculine noun but obviously not all cats are male). But I don't see why a Norn, especially an individual Norn rather than the Big Three, could not be or be seen to be masculine.

I personally think the Big Three need to be female-ish to balance out Mimir as guardian of Mimir's Well being male-ish and Hvelgelmir's guardians being snake-is-a-gender-ish, but that's not a structure you necessarily need to keep. (Also this is the first time I've considered that snake *is* a gender in Norse mythology, but that would explain so much.)

[cyrano]

You understood the question pretty well. I was wondering if the entity or the process that makes them Norny required that they be female. I was thinking of making them three gay men (Or some combination of gay men and women) in California during the forties, and didn't want to go too far afield.

[mimerki]

Yeah, I personally wouldn't have an issue with that (in theory - obv it could be horrible and insulting to gay men and Norns and penguins but I don't expect that's your goal).

[cyrano]

Fingers crossed that I don't fuck it up!
Although I'll probably get LA or SF geography fucked up.
And have a tin ear for the Dashiel Hammet style.
But hey, I haven't written my 10,000 awful words yet.
Thanks for collaborating with me.