Shake that thing!

[cyrano]

I now have all six episodes of 'Thirty Days'. I was just struck by the factoid that families that make under $25K a year are twice as likely to divorce. So... sanctity of marriage people, how about a raise in the minimum wage law to preserve marriage? Or a more healthy and robust public welfare system? Think of the children!

Watched 'Last Boy Scout' and 'Presumed Innocent' this weekend. Netflix Noir Film Festival. (: I really enjoyed both of them--very different but at the same time very similar. Each gets four wags.

I got to see my friend Anne (who is now a teacher in Bakersfield) and help her with her lesson plan yesterday, even if I was sad and lame lying on my back guy.

Sitting on the couch very quietly, currently on the 'heat' of the 'heat and cold' programme. The heat is a sticky pad so it's going to hurt to remove it. Plus I'll have to get off the couch to get the freezy thing. I'm not in a big rush. (:

Comments

[sararainmaker.livejournal.com]

families that make under $25K a year are twice as likely to divorce.

I am pretty sure 25k a year is less than minimum wage if both parents work... and if both parents don't work... Daddy or Mommy needs to get a better freakin' job, especially if they have kids to take care of.

I used to think social services like welfare and the like were the best thing since sliced bread, until I saw that the people who NEED it don't use it and the people who DON'T take advantage of it. *sighs*

...If only we could help those who NEED it only...

[cyranocyrano.livejournal.com]

Looks like, according to wikipedia (not neccessarily a trusted source), You can expect to make $10,300 a year on federal minimum. So both parents working full time would be making over $20 before taxes (and before childcare unless they have kids who are old enough to not go to school and stay home to take care of the kids).

But yeah. It'd be nice to be able to tell who needed the help and who's just slacking.

[sararainmaker.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... sorry I live In California... I forget our Minimum wage is much Higher than the federal Minimum... lemmie see... in 2001 the federal minimum wage was increased to $6.25 from 4.75 that it was brought to in 1997. That means in 1997 the pre-taxed pay for one person working full time was at LEAST $9880. In 2001 it was raised to $13,000.

Yeah, Momma and daddy need to be gettin' better than minimum wage jobs... then again, people who, in their adult lives, married and with children who one parent doesn't work and the other parent is working a minimum wage job... have a LOT more problems than just the money they are bringing in.

Most people who just need help are too prideful to take advantage of government assistance... *sighs*

[cyranocyrano.livejournal.com]

And, in the end, my dry and satiric point was not that we need a more generous welfare state but that--again--I think that if the people who say they're concerned with The Family and Sanctity Of Marriage have more effective things that they could be focusing on than gay marriage. In my opinion.

[sararainmaker.livejournal.com]

Indeed.

[cyranocyrano.livejournal.com]

Bah. With proper english usage:

And, in the end, my dry and satiric point was not that we need a more generous welfare state but that--again--I think that if the people who say they're concerned with The Family and Sanctity Of Marriage are concerned with those things, they have more effective things that they could be focusing on than gay marriage. In my opinion.

[bumblepudding.livejournal.com]

One problem with Mommy and Daddy working is that day care for baby often costs yearly the equivalent of a minimum wage salary. So Parent #2, contemplating work, can be left in the unpleasant position of either finding something very good, or at night (not exactly a boon to domestic bliss) or nothing at all. Or trading child-time for work with no appreciable change in the family finances.

[sararainmaker.livejournal.com]

Definitely... I am planning on being a Stay-at-home mom at LEAST until my kids are in grade-school...

but then they should have thought about what they are making in money and how can they responsibly raise a child before having one... yeah I know 'accidents happen' ... but man... this is a child's life and future we are talking about... someone needs to get off their heiney and get a better job...

If for some reason my husband was unable to work or lost his job, I would take on as many jobs as possible to bring in the money needed to support My husband and child... I don't understand why so many people have a problem with that... *sighs*

[mnarra.livejournal.com]

"but then they should have thought about what they are making in money and how can they responsibly raise a child before having one... yeah I know 'accidents happen' ..."

For an overwhelming majority of Americans, having a family is the only part of their lives that they get to decide. If you walked through some of the more impoverished neighborhoods and suggested to people that they don't make enough money to take care of their children, and are therefor irresponsible for having them ... be ready to run.

More than that, though, is a prejudice issue. You are sitting above the median looking down, seeing the unwashed poor wallowing in filth and raising their Jerry Springer audience members, uneducated, shiftless, and without a future beyond what their parents had, and you are saying that what they are planning for, what they are accepting, is not sufficient. The implication is that they and their families and their lifestyle have not been sufficient, and that it is irresponsible of them to have children that will perpetuate their culture.

Make no mistake; poverty in America is a culture. My ex comes from a Poor White Trash background, and PWT is not merely poor and uneducated. There are real cultural values that go with the background, and not all of them are bad values. You might believe that raising clean, educated children is the best choice for the kid, but they would tell you it is better to raise a girl that won't drink too much and a boy that will stay with his wife even after they grow to hate each other.

Poverty does not live in a world of choices.

"someone needs to get off their heiney and get a better job..."

I've been working toward a better job for more than two decades. I still make less than $6 over minimum, and am in high demand. Getting a better job is nearly impossible without the appropriate (and expensive) wardrobe, the appropriate (and expensive) tools, the appropriate (and expensive) education.

[sararainmaker.livejournal.com]

Trust me, I don't look down on the poor. I look down on the people who are lazy and don't try to make the money they need for food and clothing and the simple needs of their family, instead turning on the government to help them.

My husband-to-be came from a family that was in all right, impoverished. What is worse is that his father was a freakin' rocket scientist, he had the schooling and until the defense cutbacks in the 90's he had a very good job. Because of his fathers age at that time he couldn't find a job in his industry to save his life. His family had to move in with his sister for a time being just so they could have a roof over their heads. The man worked his ass off to provide what he could for his family, always trying to improve himself and his family. I admire that, and I think that taught his children more than any school ever could.

Don't get me wrong, I understand wanting to have children... What I don't understand is the people that DON'T work their ass off for their children and just sit and take money from the government never trying to improve the situation they are in at all... ("the situation" being that their children don't have food every day, not that they don't have a shiney new bike).

[mnarra.livejournal.com]

Hopelessness goes along with the poverty culture. See the above point bumblepudding made about day care. When there is no appreciable change in the net income, why bother to try?

As for the possibility of working too many jobs, too many hours...it works, but it takes a toll. I have held multiple jobs while going to school full time, for years. It's ugly. It eventually produces a situational insanity characterized by an inability to prioritize -- not a joke. My ex couldn't even work a single job, be a mother, fight with me, and go to school; she had to quit to do the schooling. My current gets shell-shocked at long hours; two jobs would brutalize her. The ability to hold multiple or long-hour jobs is not as minor an ability as one might think.

If the jobs you can hold are low paying, the stress that comes from working more than one can require treatment (in terms of ice cream, beer, dinner out, so forth) that negates the extra earnings, and, in the end, reduces the laborer to a point that being a spouse and parent are completely beyond him. I worked my tail off, performed as superman ... and, frankly, was not a very good father during that time.

It would have been better for my kids if I'd worked less hard, we had gone to welfare, and they had had me around for guidance, a lack they are paying for now.

[cerulean-me.livejournal.com]

You might believe that raising clean, educated children is the best choice for the kid, but they would tell you it is better to raise a girl that won't drink too much and a boy that will stay with his wife even after they grow to hate each other.

My parents were poor. I was clean and educated. My friend's parents had money, but she drinks too much and has a drug problem.

These attributes have little to do with money, and more to do with how you raise your children. My children are generally clean- I have a toddler and a preschooler. My children are bright and well educated for their ages. We are careful to ask that people enroll our children in classes at the community center, rather than buy them stuffed animals for birthdays and such.

One can lead a rich life while still living below the poverty line.

[mnarra.livejournal.com]

er.

That appears to have pushed a button. Sorry.

[sararainmaker.livejournal.com]

hey, thats cool. As long as you don't hate me for not being very well spoken. :)

[cerulean-me.livejournal.com]

When we had my daughter (who wasn't as planned as we would have liked) my husband was making $80k a year. Shortly after she was born, I started doing some childcare in our home, bringing in another $25k. Well, he lost his job, this was in 2001 and has not found another geek job since. Since then we've traded off an and on being the "at home" parent or working. On and off welfare, just doing the best we can... but sometimes the jobs just aren't there.

[sararainmaker.livejournal.com]

As I understand completely...

You know I haven't thought of the childcare thing... My neighbor used to watch all the neighborhood kids after school. She and her husband were down on their luck she couldn't get a teaching job at the time and the family needed supplementary income and there were about 5 million too many substitute teachers in the state.

I should really look into that for the future when We have kids. :)

[your-liquid-sky.livejournal.com]

The way the numbers work in my neck of the woods is that parent number two (usually Mommy) needs to make three times minimum wage to make it worth her while to keep working. Making twice minimum wage doesn't quite cut it; it will pay for daycare for one child, and bring you home $300 extra a month, which, you know, that's almost a car payment, but it also bumps you into the next tax bracket, and you end up working 40 hours a week plus commute time and having strangers raise your kid so you can pay higher taxes and net about $210 a month. I am at that age where all my friends are having kids and I have to ask them... would you work for $210 a month? Most of them say "hell no!"

[mnarra.livejournal.com]

I needed it and was refused, on three occasions over 15 years.

The rules are set up to support the system the way it is used.

[sararainmaker.livejournal.com]

My fiance's mother needed her social security and disability. She was riddled with cancer and sick constantly...
...she fought for it for years...
...she got her first social security check one week after her funeral.

The system is broken.

[mnarra.livejournal.com]

:nods:

The nature of any set of rules is that they will produce patterns of behavior, and eventually people will learn those patterns and play them for the best return. Any system will be broken.

[sararainmaker.livejournal.com]

so how about no systems?

[cerulean-me.livejournal.com]

Heh, we need welfare and use it.

Right now, with the local economy as it is, both my husband and I are trained for better jobs- but the jobs just aren't there. Relocating to where there ARE jobs are an option, but the costs of moving are such that we cannot afford to move.

At least where we are now, we have friends and family, who are a big help.

[sararainmaker.livejournal.com]

I take it you are in IT. *nods* My fiance and I were there for about 4 months this year, while engaged even.

See that is what welfare was set up for... helping people who, because of hard times, are a little down on their luck.

To be honest... I am surprised you actually got it considering you needed it and you are educated and capable (in their eyes) of having well paid jobs (even if the job market is flipping you off at the moment).

Don't worry too much, the market is stabilizing itself nicely... and things will right themselves soon. Now if only we could actually make enough money to be able to afford a home where our jobs are... Southern California sucks. *sighs*

[cerulean-me.livejournal.com]

It wasn't easy to get welfare... in fact, we kinda had to lie and act super pathetic. In San Francisco, there's even weird rule that if you work more than 12 hours a week, you don't qualify for cash aid- no matter how much money you.

Now, lets say that you were, oh, driving a cab? It was off season for tourists, to you were bringing in less than $25 a day, but a had a contract so you HAD to rent your cab... You have the potential to become self sufficiant, yet, welfare wouldn't allow you to work and get the help that you needed- based soley on the amount of hours that you worked, and having nothing to do with the money you were bringing in. Were our situation different, my husband would have quit his job to collect welfare. We opted to leave the area instead.

Yeah, my husband was in IT... but the market is saturated with a lot of well educated people willing to do ANYTHING... so, as an administrative assistant, I'm having trouble finding work too.

[sararainmaker.livejournal.com]

<-- Was Administrative Assistant/Receptionist... now Office Manager.

I was very lucky to be in a job for the 5 years during the worst of it in 2000 to 2005. The beginning of this year I lost my job due to everyone starting to work from home. I was unemployed from February until early June. I worked a few odd jobs as a temporary employee when I could. My fiance lost his job in November of last year. He just got a job in mid-May. He was allowed unemployment. I was allowed none (yeah and when I dislocated my knee and was unable to work for a couple of months, I wasn't allowed disability either...) Gotta love California.